Karina Sinclair: If you are thinking of setting up your own landscape design firm, take a listen to this episode before you quit your day job. Welcome back to the Landscape Ontario podcast. I’m your host, Karina Sinclair. Today, we’re diving deep into the realities of launching and running your own practice with John Bright, a certified landscape designer and founder of BRIGHT Design Studio.
After completing his first full year of striking out on his own, John is here to reflect on the journey from employee to owner. He’ll share how he knew it was time to leave and launch his own landscape design business and describe how there’s never a perfect moment to leap. We discuss the non-design essentials that he had to set up immediately, like bookkeeping, marketing and administration, largely handled solo with advice from trusted peers and family.
Get ready for honest talk about surprise challenges, including slow periods and inconsistent income, and how he learned to streamline sales. Plus, we’ll hear about what’s next for BRIGHT Design Studio, including future plans to hire support. Stay tuned for this insightful conversation from somebody who has just completed their first year of entrepreneurship.
Music
Karina Sinclair: Welcome to the podcast, John. Congratulations on making it through a full year of running your own studio. Thanks for carving out some time to visit us on the podcast today to talk about all the lessons you’ve learned and the opportunities you’ve experienced since striking out on your own.
John Bright: Thanks for having me.
Karina Sinclair: Now, you had a career working for other people before starting BRIGHT Design Studio. What was the moment you knew that it was time to leave and launch your own company?
John Bright: Oh, I don’t know if it was a specific moment, but there’s definitely a few moments that built over time. Like you said, I had a whole other career, before doing this, in this field. But, I would say I was just getting tired and just worn down and was just like, “What am I doing? I think I gotta shake it up, and just do my own thing.” I don’t think there’s a good time to do it. There’s never, like, the perfect time, that was what I was told and realized. So I just- One day just was like, “I gotta just, I gotta do this. This has built up too long to just…” Yeah, it just, it had built up for too long, so make that leap.
Karina Sinclair: So once you decided to head out on your own, what were some of the first few things that you had to set up that had nothing to do with landscape design but involved getting your own business official?
John Bright: Before I did anything, I reached out to other people that have started their own business, in this industry. Just people that I knew that I could trust and would give me honest feedback if I was doing the right thing or not. ‘Cause I didn’t go to business school. I went to design school. I didn’t do business.
So, that was the beginning, was just talking to those, those people first and getting kind of some reassurance that I was… If I, uh, because I was even talking to them, that I was doing the right thing. That was good to hear, and to know that I was going in the right direction.
And then you get into, like, all the kind of the technical stuff of setting up a business is you- you’ve gotta register a business. You have to create a business name. You have to get an HST number. You have to do all of these background things that you don’t necessarily think about right away when you’re like, “I’m just gonna go and I’m gonna go do my own thing.”
So there’s, there’s some administrative stuff that you gotta do that I, uh, yeah, had to learn on the fly. And ask other people for advice on how to do and where to go and ’cause that’s not my strong suit. I can do it, it’s just, it’s not where I find a lot of fun or value.
And I know I have to do it, I just don’t like doing it. So yeah, it’s just not the favourite thing. But that’s some of the stuff that I realized I had to do, just didn’t know how to go about doing it. I don’t know, there’s not really a way to just go do it.
You just ask people. Just bug people. “What’d you do? How’d you do this?” If they’re, they’re friends they’ll, they’ll give you feedback. They’ll g- they’ll, they’ll point you in the right direction. So that’s what I did.
Karina Sinclair: Now, some of these tasks, like you’re right, a lot of people don’t necessarily go to school for the business part. They go to school and do all their training in that thing they love to do, which doesn’t necessarily include bookkeeping and marketing and all of that. Are you still trying to do all that yourself or are you looking to work with other partners who that’s their specialty and let them handle some of that for you?
Or are you at that level yet?
John Bright: Right now I do everything myself. All the bookkeeping, all of the expense reports and social media. Everything that’s not design or project management or actually doing like what the business is written to be. Yeah, I do all of that other stuff right now. It’s certainly a lot. It’s quite taxing doing it all by yourself. I would love to be able to have other people do it for me, or hire some people to help or subcontract it out or something like that so that I don’t have to do it all the time. But, I don’t know if I’m there yet. I don’t know if there is a good time to say you are there.
Just like starting the business. I don’t know if there’s a good time to be like, “Yeah, okay, I can just have somebody else do this.” I think you just have to do it and then just kind of ride the wave. So yeah, I don’t know if I’m there, but it adds a level of stress that I don’t, I don’t want, but it’s gotta get done, so yeah.
Karina Sinclair: It’s probably when you get to the point where doing those tasks is keeping you from doing the work that you’re meant to do, right? And those are the high quality tasks that only you can complete. If you can’t actually do that part while doing all this other part, that’s probably a good sign to let somebody else handle it so you can keep working on the design and the project management and stop getting in your own way almost.
John Bright: I probably get in my own way a little bit on, on some of the stuff. I think once a couple other projects start going live and are under construction, that I will probably have my hands way too full to do all of that stuff.
So I’ll probably have to bug people to say, “Can you help me do this,” or, “Can you just do this for me?” Just the thought had crossed my mind, not even for that stuff, but just even for, like, design help. Just being able to keep projects moving while I’m doing other things. Not necessarily doing the admin stuff but being on site, troubleshooting, project managing things, or giving clients the right amount of focus that they need.
Sometimes that takes away from actually doing the drawing part, is giving your clients the right attention. So that’s still a, a, balance that I’m figuring out.
Karina Sinclair: What’s the part that you love to do the most?
John Bright: I mean, I like designing. You’re a designer, you like designing. You’re not gonna not like it. But I do like managing projects and seeing them come to life and just overseeing how everything goes and making sure everything’s being done on time and just keeping things on track. I am a people person, so I like the social aspect of it and being able to just converse and create those relationships with people and clients. That’s half the battle is to build a relationship with your client or, or your, your potential client before they become a client.
I like that aspect a lot too, but doing all that stuff takes away from sitting in the office and running numbers and creating proposals and time at the desk just sketching, creating concepts and ideas. It’s still a work in progress. I haven’t figured out how to balance everything quite yet but we’re getting there.
Karina Sinclair: I appreciate that honest take on it because it’s not all roses and sunshine. Even though we might draw them into our landscape design, it doesn’t actually work out that way sometimes. And I think design is probably a fairly independent, solitary task, right?
It’s not this group effort in that moment. It’s you and the design. So everything else crowding in on that opportunity to bring your dreams to life, it can be a bit of a distraction.
Now, in this past year, looking back, did you have any surprise challenges or tough moments that you weren’t quite ready for, and what did you learn from that?
John Bright: Well, I mean, the first thing that’s shocking to the system is going from a weekly paycheck or a biweekly paycheck to w- w- when’s the next paycheck gonna show up? That’s an adjustment period. And even just getting your name out there and just trying to get things started is interesting.
It’s a whole other world being the one running the show. It opens you up to a lot of different opportunities, but it’s interesting starting on that side. The other struggle is to be ready for when work isn’t there, and to be okay with it, and to be mentally okay with it.
You’re not gonna come out of the gates and just be, “I’m booked solid.” Like that, for some people it might happen, and that’s great, but it doesn’t happen with everybody. It certainly didn’t happen with me. Like, I got, I was busy enough to get through the year, but there were certainly stretches of time where I was not working on anything.
And not working on anything is I’m not working on a design. I’m still working on background things to build the business and to improve my process of how I would like to do things. Changing and updating the website and changing the contracts that we do.
Opening up different services, things that we provide now instead of just being design. ‘Cause being design only is really tough to make a living just doing that alone. There’s, kinda have to do other things, which was part of the first year struggles.
Karina Sinclair: And so do you think now that you’re the head of your own studio versus working for somebody else, has that changed how you design and how you would set up a project?
John Bright: It’s changed a little bit. I mean, the approach, the technical side to the design approach is the same. You do your base measurements and you get your grades. All that stuff is the same.
The speed at how things get done is slightly different. I actually feel now that I can do things at a more controlled pace. Before I felt like I was a little bit rushed or pressured. When you’re working for a bigger company or even a smaller company, there’s sales targets. There’s targets that you gotta hit on a weekly or monthly basis or yearly basis.
If you’re not producing, if you have a couple of rough months, it can look really poorly on you, and it might not be that you’re not doing a good job, it’s just that those couple months didn’t look great. But then you can turn it around in a month if you land all these projects you’ve been kind of building.
There is a pace to that scenario, which it’s good to be able to do it, but it’s nicer now to not have to pump out a design in what feels like a couple of hours, when I’ve got, “Okay, now I can actually kind of sit and kind of ruminate on some more ideas and think a little deeper into things and have a better design overall or a better project overall.”
So that’s something that I’ve realized that I actually have a little bit more time on that side of things.
Karina Sinclair: It must feel so different that, when you’re designing for somebody else’s business goals, and now you’re designing for your own business goals and having some more agency over taking the time to make it right to your standards versus just getting something down the pipeline because you get backed up. And I think when you get that chance to say, “This is my project and I’m going to take it through the way at the speed I need to do it, to do it right,” that must feel pretty liberating.
John Bright: It’s been nice. Yeah, it’s definitely been nice. It’s been a nice change of pace, uh, especially at the beginning. Now, there’s a few more clients on the go, so that pace kind of comes back a little bit of, “Okay, this has gotta get done a little quicker.” But I still set the pace.
So if I’m saying I can get it done in this time, then I gotta get it done. I’ve done some late nights because of it, but that’s okay. I guess that’s also part of this, there’s no real set schedule anymore. It’s, yeah, we operate from this time to this time, but if I gotta get something done and something comes up in family life or everyday life, I still gotta get it done, so I guess I’ll work at night. Sometimes that happens.
Karina Sinclair: That flexibility is always a useful thing ’cause real life does get in the way sometimes. One of the other things that is a little bit different I would imagine is you get to choose the clients and the projects that you work on now. So in a competitive space where there’s a lot of designers out there, how do you stand out from the crowd in making sure that you’re attracting the kinds of clients that are right for you?
John Bright: I think good design makes you stand out, and just the quality of what you’re doing helps. I think I have a certain style that people gravitate towards. So if people are calling me, they’ve seen something on the website or seen something on Instagram or something, or somebody’s talked to them saying, “Hey,” like, “Oh, you’ve got this kind of style. Maybe you wanna talk to this guy.”
Yeah, I definitely have a certain style that’s kind of evolved. That’s kind of helped me stick out a little bit. Doing things a little bit, uh, a little bit old school too. Doing some hand rendering and that kind of stuff sets you apart a little bit.
I used to do it lot more and then kind of stopped because everything went to 3D and all that. I still do a lot of that but back to, like, having more control over the process, I can do those sketches and kind of work through that a little bit more. So hand sketching has come back into play and, uh, there’s a lot of clients that appreciate that, back to the roots of real designing, I guess.
Karina Sinclair: Landscapes are such tangible spaces and pen to paper is a very tangible activity and I think maybe makes that different connection to what you’re actually doing. So it’s interesting to hear that as a modern designer, you are relying on something that, like you said, old school, but maybe it’s classic for a reason.
John Bright: It shouldn’t have gone out of style. Maybe it did, but I think it should have a resurgence. It should come back ’cause something that happens when you start doodling. There’s some connection between your creativity and your thoughts, going from there to the paper, there’s something that happens and, and it doesn’t necessarily happen when you’re just pointing and clicking a mouse.
And just being in the space too. It’s nice to actually sketch when you’re in the space and being able to spend more time, uh, again, it’s just, it’s all back to control of time, being able to control my time a little bit differently. Being able to spend more time on an initial site visit or a site measure, soak in the space and do a little sketching goes a long way.
Karina Sinclair: Sounds like it could be almost meditative. To be in that space and have the spirit of it resonating with you. I know that sounds kind of froufrou, but you’re right. Like, the people who live in that space, you need to imagine their laughter and children running through and people picking flowers to take inside and having all those details of living versus that removal when you’re at a computer space trying to represent the same ideas.
John Bright: Yeah. That’s pretty much what it is, is being able to be in that space and think of, you start envisioning or building things in your head of how is the space actually gonna work. It should function for real life and not just for the aesthetics. So being in that, actually sitting in the space really helps figure that out.
Karina Sinclair: Over the course of a year, a lot can happen. Have you incorporated anything in the last, say, three to six months that you wish you’d done right at the beginning? Any tools or routines or mindset change that has made things run more smoothly and is advice that you would have given yourself a year ago?
John Bright: Mindset change, I guess, would be a thing. Just trying to keep myself more relaxed as possible, which is still working on, ’cause I like to be busy. I guess the mindset of enjoying the downtime when you have it. I like to keep as busy as possible, so having downtime, it feels odd.
So just being able to enjoy that part when it does happen instead of fidgeting and thinking, “What else could I be doing?” Or, “I should be doing something else.” Just enjoy the downtime when you get it, ’cause it doesn’t happen all the time.
And things that have been changed or implemented in the last little bit, at the beginning of the year I had like a complete reset of how we would approach clients and projects, instead of just design services and a certain way that we do it. I found that the contracts or proposals I was putting out were super detailed and very long, and nobody really wants to read super long contracts or agreements.
It’s too technical. Attention spans are very short, so everything needs to be quick and precise, and get the point across. So we restructured all the contracts to like a one-page or a one-and-a-half-page type thing, and offered up different services, so kind of break things up.
So instead of like, “Here’s this big lump of stuff,” it’s “pick and choose your adventure.” And that way it’s easier for us to, or for myself, to tailor services to each client. So that would’ve been helpful knowing that right off the, the get-go of like I should’ve structured it like that right away, but I didn’t.
That took six to eight months of learning, “Okay, I think I need to change how this all gets presented to people.” Beyond just your meeting with them or like a discovery call or sit-down consultation, how to show the value that you’re bringing to the project by them hiring you. So having those kind of things initially would’ve helped me feel a lot better uh, at the beginning, but I figured it out and changed things up and it’s been going pretty smoothly so far this year, having those things in place. Certainly better than last year.
Karina Sinclair: So what happened that brought you to that realization of changing the way you do your contracts?
John Bright: Some of it was contractor to contractor, like kind of like business to business type things where another contractor had hired me or wanted to bring me in, and there wasn’t direct feedback, but I could just kind of feel it. Like, all right, that was probably too much. These guys don’t wanna read all that stuff. It’s too much. They’re busy. They just want to know, “This is what I am getting, and it’s gonna be quality. Okay, good. What’s the price? All right.”
I started to kind of feel the same thing a little bit with some customers or clients. I was finding that I wasn’t landing as many things as I had anticipated.
In the sales world I was relatively good at sales. Didn’t do too bad for myself in that world. I’m used to landing most projects or most contracts that I put out there, and that wasn’t necessarily the case with everything that I was putting out for myself and why is this happening?
And as soon as I added the value piece to it as kind of a reinforcement, then all of a sudden everything changed and people were like, “Oh yeah, no problem. Signed.” Everything was a little more streamlined and just a little bit simpler and cleaner and that seems to have helped in that area.
Karina Sinclair: I imagine in the time since you’ve focused on sales, a lot has changed in the world and in the economy and people’s priorities or their comfort level with big expenditures may have changed due to some big global issues. So I think that has probably also been a very tricky time to start a new business in this kind of economy.
John Bright: Yeah, I picked the worst time. Just the worst. Yeah, a terrible time to try and do this. But, when I talk to different people that I look up to as designers and business owners and kind of mentors, two of them said the same thing to me. They started in the recession in the ’90s, and they’re like, “Yeah, I, I don’t know. Like, I just did it and figured if I can get through this, then I should be able to get through when people are feeling good and the economy is thriving and doing a lot better than what it is now.”
So I got the same kind of look of like, ” Why would you do this now?” And I got the same kind of thought, like, “What am I doing?” But then was kind of reassured by, “Okay, well, you guys did it too, and you did it in similar kind of economic stress we’re dealing with now.”
So I can make it and get by and be able to pay bills and be able to live in this kind of environment, then I should be okay, or a lot better off when things eventually turn around.
Yeah.
Karina Sinclair: Because everything’s cyclical, right? There’s always those highs and lows that come and go and we- we’ve seen them. So I think, because there is no perfect time to get started, other than maybe 20 years ago was the best time to get started, but the other best time is today, yeah.
John Bright: 20 years ago, that would’ve been great. Or right when COVID happened, ’cause everyone was, “I need stuff done in my yard.” That would’ve been a great time to go and do it, but I was not thinking that at the time.
I didn’t think I had enough experience with all aspects of the industry to do it.
Karina Sinclair: So speaking of all those aspects, where do you go to learn them? You mentioned speaking to some mentors. Like how have you formally or informally picked up the skills to help you with bookkeeping, marketing, sales, client relationship building, all the businessy things. Did you go somewhere to learn that?
John Bright: So marketing didn’t really go anywhere. I’ve just been like, “Okay, I think I take a decent picture, so all right, I’ll put that online.” Like, that’s the extent of my marketing, is putting something on Instagram and hoping that it does something or I’ll spend a little bit for an ad to go somewhere for a couple days. But that’s the extent of my marketing knowledge or expertise.
And from an admin standpoint, I lean on my dad. He’s a retired actuary, so really good with numbers, way beyond what I can comprehend. I look at Excel and I see gibberish. He looks at it and it’s like this is first language. It’s a breeze for him. He did a lot of setup and help for the admin and number side of things for myself. So I definitely leaned on him for that. The client relations and, like, sales and that kind of stuff, I honestly got thrown into the mix one day when I was working for another firm in London.
My boss at the time, I had just moved back from Toronto because I worked in Toronto for a year at a firm there, and then moved back to London. And it was basically like my second week in, and he’s like, ” Yeah, I’m gonna have you shadow me, and you can come for some client meetings and such.”
And I’m like, and then when I got to the office, he was not there. I called him. I’m like, “What’s up?” And he’s like, “I’m super sick. Like, I’m, I’m not gonna be in at all.” So I was like, “Well, what do you want me to do? Are you canceling the meetings, rescheduling or what?” He’s like, “Ah, you just go.” So I went and said, “Okay.” He goes, “Yeah, kind of like sink or swim, man. Figure it out. Just go fill in for me.” So I filled in for him. I had three meetings, and I came back with three deposits. Okay, so something went right. There’s something here, and then that just kind of evolved. So I didn’t really have any training until I went to another company, and then they were like, ” You should have some sales training.”
I didn’t know what that was. I’ve gone through two rounds of sales training, and the first time around it kind of messed me up with my process and how I would talk to people ’cause I was overthinking, and thinking about their processes and how they do things and kind of reading people and reading people’s profiles and personality profiles, trying to pick up on social cues and things that I was already doing but I didn’t realize I was doing.
I kind of went backwards for a little bit and struggled. But then figured it out, found my own twist on their process and then went for sales training again when I went to another company ’cause they were like, “This is part of our process. You have to go through this in the position you’re in.” So I did that, and there’s definitely some sales training behind me now. But at first it was just, “Go see what happens.” Kind of like starting a business. Go see what happens.
Karina Sinclair: Wonderful things can happen, but I’m sure it was a little daunting to step into those calls without any support at that moment. People don’t fully understand what they’re capable of until they’re in a position that tests them. And you do sink or swim, and usually I think most people can pick themselves up and get through it.
But when you doubt yourself and tell yourself, “Well, I can’t do it until I’ve been formally trained.” Uh, sometimes we just need to let those barriers down, let those high expectations down, and just see what happens.
John Bright: Yeah. I, I, that’s, that’s kind of what, what happened. Just, all right, just go for it, and see what happens.
Karina Sinclair: Have you taken part in any programs through Landscape Ontario or any of the workshops and seminars and groups that are supportive of independent businesses?
John Bright: Well, I sit on the Designer Sector Group, so there’s some business chatter on there sometimes and some back and forth. I go to the Designer Conference every year. Gotta continue getting my credits to keep my CLD and it’s good to just see people.
Just keeping in touch with people that are in my area is also just a good way to keep business relations going and just open up opportunities.
Karina Sinclair: Yeah, that networking is really important, especially if you’re doing a lot of business to business and fellow contractor connections and working that way. You mentioned CLD a second ago. Do you wanna explain what that is to listeners who are not familiar with that term?
John Bright: Yes, CLD is Certified Landscape Designer. So a bit of a process to go through to get that. It’s essentially a professional designation to say that you know what you’re doing. It’s recognized across Ontario, so you can be in any city in Ontario working and you can be considered a professional designer.
There’s a few ways that you can go about getting it. If you have schooling, that’s ideal to speed things along, otherwise you have to do seven to 10 years of in practice work, live practice work where you’re actually the one who’s, you know, you designed it, you managed the build, saw the project all the way through from start to finish.
And there’s some exams to do when you go through the process. Six exams, three portfolio projects you submit for, for judgment. I sit on that part of it too. I judge some of the portfolios. We’re not mean. We just wanna make sure everything’s being done to the standard that it should be. But yeah, there’s a bit of a process to do it, but it’s another way to set yourself apart from other designers. It shows you’re not a fly-by-night kind of person. The judging is from your peers in the industry approving that you do know what you’re doing.
Karina Sinclair: I’ll leave a link in the show notes if anyone is interested in pursuing that. It is administered through the CNLA. There’s some really great resources out there, so if other designers are listening and thinking of doing that, they can find more information in the show notes on this episode’s webpage.
Now that you’ve fully transitioned from employee to owner, do you have a different definition for success for yourself?
John Bright: I haven’t really thought about that. I guess success is getting through the month. I guess success would be getting through the week, then getting through the month, then getting through the year.
That’s how I would look at it. Instead of before success, was did I hit the sales goal for the month so I get a little bonus? Yeah, so it’s, I guess, I guess I look at it a little differently now. Yep.
Karina Sinclair: And again, those were somebody else’s metrics, right? Like those were their goals and their targets and you were a cog in the wheel to achieve them. Now you’re the whole machine. And so you might have some different goals and targets that you would want to set.
So like what does the next stage of your business look like? Is there growth? Are there other targets that you hope to reach by the end of year two or year five or whatever that might look like?
John Bright: Eventually it would be nice to have another designer and have like an actual staff. If that’s one or 2 or 3. Depends. At least another, another body in the studio would be ideal. And you just bounce ideas off each other. Then eventually someone to just do all my bookkeeping. I don’t want to have to do that forever. It’s not going to be something that I’m going to want to do for too much longer. Those are probably the two next things to happen. I don’t know if they’re this year or next year, but yeah, they’ve got to happen at some point. I don’t see this just being just me forever for this business. I feel like there’s got to be a little team, a little team of us going around and making cool projects and making things happen.
Karina Sinclair: Are there other designers that you look at what they have and think, “I could have that my own way someday?”
John Bright: Uh, Haig Seferian. His whole setup is great. Like, that’s the model, really. So if I could eventually get to that level or have a little staff team behind me, that would be ideal. I don’t wanna remove myself too much from the every day of things ’cause I’m too hands-on, and I like to be in the process. But I would certainly enjoy having a little team of people to make this thing be a real thing.
Karina Sinclair: You’re well on your way. I mean, that first year is always gonna be difficult, but you already have, like, an actual physical studio space. I know that that is a separate building from your home, so you get to actually have that separation from work and life and have that separate space.
So I think that’s probably gonna be pretty handy for you. And yeah, like you, you’ve had a year of learning to be able to move forward. It’s like how they say perennials, the first year they sleep, the second year they creep, and then the third year they leap. And so, some great things are still on their way for you.
John Bright: Yeah. We’ll see. We’ll see how the rest of this year goes. But hopefully year three is a leap.
Karina Sinclair: John, thank you for coming onto the podcast to share this very honest and candid review of what it’s like to be on your own, an independent contractor in your first year. It sounds like you’ve learned a lot and there’s still lots of exciting things for you to explore and that you’re feeling pretty hopeful and I think that’s really exciting.
Is there anything that you wanted to share with our listeners as one last parting gift, something that might just kick somebody in the butt who is sitting on the fence deciding if they want to make this launch. What would you tell them?
John Bright: Just go and do it. It’s gonna nag at you forever, and so you might as well just do it. It nagged at me for probably five years or longer, and I shouldn’t have let it nag that long, but I did, and then I just went and did it. That’s all you gotta do. You just go do it. It’s scary, but just do it.
You’ll feel better.
Music
Karina Sinclair: This brings us to the end of a very candid conversation with John Bright from BRIGHT Design Studio. We covered a lot of ground about his first year journey of entrepreneurship, from the crucial necessity of mastering non-design skills to the personal shift to his own idea of success as an owner.
John’s experience shows that the transition requires grit, adaptability and a willingness to figure out things as you go. He also shares what he wished he had known right from the start, and to any designer thinking about going independent, John offers this advice: Just do it.
Thank you for tuning in to the Landscape Ontario Podcast. If you’d like to hear more stories from people doing interesting things in the landscape trades, find us wherever you listen to podcasts and follow along. You’ll find relevant links in the show notes on this episode’s page at LandscapeOntario.com/podcast. And as always, if you enjoyed listening today, please subscribe, share it with a colleague and let us know what you think.
Whether you have feedback, suggestions for future topics, or ideas for guests, send me a message at Podcast@LandscapeOntario.com. Don’t forget to subscribe so you can catch all the latest stories from the landscape industry. Thanks for tuning in today, and until next time, keep growing.
