Karina: Welcome to the Landscape Ontario Podcast. I’m your host, Karina Sinclair. When you think about landscaping, cemeteries probably aren’t the first spaces that come to mind, but these landscapes are some of the most meaningful places we care for. They have to be beautiful and welcoming, honour history, provide comfort to grieving families, and increasingly support biodiversity and environmental sustainability.
In this episode, I’m joined by John Perota, Director of Property Services at Mount Pleasant Group. John oversees the care of some of Ontario’s most well-known cemeteries, and he shares what it takes to manage these unique landscapes. We talk about preserving mature trees, choosing the right plants, balancing maintenance with ecological goals, and finding creative ways to care for the land, including the surprising role of bees and even goats.
Whether you maintain parks, public spaces, or residential landscapes, there are lessons here about stewardship, long-term planning, and designing landscapes that serve both people and nature. I think you’ll come away with a new appreciation for these remarkable places. Let’s get started.
Music
Karina: So John, thanks for coming on the show today. I’m really excited to talk about sanctuary spaces with you. But first I want to give you an opportunity to introduce yourself.
John: Okay, thank you. So as you mentioned, my name is John Perrotta. I am the director of cemeteries for the Mount Pleasant Group of Cemeteries located in Toronto, Ontario. Currently, we operate ten cemeteries and on those cemeteries we have mausoleums and funeral centres as well. I have been in the cemetery industry for quite some time.
It kind of dates back to my days as a seasonal. I was going through university, started cutting the grass, doing the maintenance and repairs and I never left. I just love the industry so much. So twenty-five plus years later, here I am still in the industry. I’m also a past president of the Ontario Association of Cemetery and Funeral Professionals. So that is quite an experience just networking, meeting all kinds of people that are in the bereavement industry in Ontario.
Karina: I’m really glad that you mentioned your early days as a landscaper. So you have been there you’ve got roots in, in both the bereavement industry and the landscape industry, so that is a unique position for you.
John: It is, yeah. Yeah, I’ve never left, but I always laugh. I’ve never left, but I love it, so
Karina: Let’s dive into the concept that cemeteries are landscapes that need to last for generations. What sorts of considerations and long-term responsibility, how does that influence the design, maintenance, and capital building for such spaces?
John: Yeah, you’re right. So cemeteries are forever. So they’re meant to last longer than generations. They’re meant to last literally perpetually. So it’s very important to take that into consideration when we’re developing our cemeteries. So we really, we rely on the long-term performance of our materials and the design, of course whenever we’re making these types of decisions. What we like to do is incorporate low impact development techniques, including bioswales, natural drainage features, and stormwater management systems that work with the site’s natural topography. When we develop these cemeteries, we’re very mindful of how we open up areas. To give you an example, if we have 100 acres of property which we want to develop into a cemetery, we’re not doing everything all at once, right?
We’re phasing it throughout. So maybe we start with the 30 acres of the 100 acres, and we develop that, work on that, bring it up to our standards, and as we require more space, we phase it out and open up other portions of the cemetery. Our goal really is to balance environmental stewardship with our operational needs to ensure the cemetery remains sustainable and functional forever.
Karina: Oh, that’s a tall order. So much can fit into an acre at a time. Let’s start with the trees. Many of these trees in the older cemeteries are maybe some of the oldest in the community. What goes into preserving that forest while also planning for that next generation of an urban canopy?
John: Yeah. So I’m proud to say that we have our own arborist team on site. We’re probably the only cemetery in Canada, probably North America, that has a dedicated arborist. So I’m really proud to say that. It all begins with risk management. That’s our primary driver of tree removal and maintenance decisions at MPG. Trees are large organic infrastructure that are capable of failure, so we prioritize maintenance based on the risk they pose to the public and our neighbours. This is in accordance with the ISA Tree Risk Assessment Qualification Standards. So any tree that’s removed is eventually replanted with a new tree in that space. So we base it on “right tree, right place” strategies. So that’s the foundation of our preservation and planning for generations of trees. This means choosing the appropriate species when tree planting each year based on site locations and surroundings. For example, shade-tolerant species go in areas where existing dense tree canopies exist. Salt-tolerant species go in the roadside areas. Additionally diversity is key in planning for the next generation of trees. Over the coming decades, climate change will bring an increased and unpredictable volume of extreme weather and invasive pests and disease. We want to offset our risk from these future challenges by always planting a wide and diverse variety of tree species to maintain resilience within our urban forest.
Karina: As you’re replacing some trees, is there a particular kind that commonly needs to come out? And what are some of the new species that you’re mixing in?
John: I rely on our arborist team to make those decisions, but there’s some older oaks on our property that have been there for 100 years plus, right? So we’re starting to see those starting to deteriorate. We usually like to replace it with a like for like if it fits in that area. The emerald ash borer and the gypsy moth, that’s kind of playing an impact on our trees as well, and we’re trying to do whatever it takes to preserve and maintain these trees. But again diversity and I really rely on our consultants and our arborist team to decide what is the best tree for each location.
Karina: Obviously you’re not going to find a 100-year-old tree at a nursery farm nearby and pop that into the space. At what maturity are you looking for these trees to put them in to replace the ones that are coming out?
John: They’re probably five or six years old trees that we’re placing.
Karina: Okay. The environmental impact of that would affect the habitats of established wildlife populations in those trees and their ability to capture carbon, as well as the shade they provide. But I guess that staggered approach will allow this sanctuary space to keep thriving as it ages and continues to evolve.
John: Exactly. Exactly. So a few of our properties, especially Mount Pleasant Cemetery itself in downtown Toronto, we’ve got like 60% canopy coverage, so it’s fantastic. So if one tree goes down, it’s replaceable. So it’s not too big of an impact just because of the canopy that we already have. In our future cemeteries or newer cemeteries, we were always, always planting. Someone once told me the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, right? So, we’re trying our best. We’re going into new sections, new locations, and we’re planting. And hopefully, as we get there, they’ll be more established and offer more tree canopy.
Karina: A few minutes ago, you mentioned how you will choose trees that prefer shade in the shady canopy, and then you’ll look for something that is more salt tolerant if they’re closer to the roads that run through the cemetery. What are some of the other design decisions that you have to make that just help cemetery maintenance easier or reduce challenges for years to come?
John: For sure. So, we’re a park essentially, but we’re not a park because we have to do interments, we have to do burials. That plays a big decision in the type of tree that we plant as well. We’re thinking long-term. So if you plant a tree now, we want to have burials in and around that tree now, as opposed to 20 years from now, where it’s going to impact the root system, right?
So that’s kind of the decision that we make. We call them tree lots essentially within our cemetery. There’s a lot of planning that goes around that. So if a tree does come down, okay, let’s develop this area now, plant it, put in a smaller tree so that we can have some more burials, utilize the space, then eventually as the tree grows, it won’t be impacted as much.
The biggest challenge for a cemetery with trees is just the root damage, right? And we always have to go back. You may have bought a plot 30 years ago. Well, that tree is now massive, and we have to do the burial. So we do whatever it takes to preserve that tree because they are our biggest asset and just an amazing asset to have in all of our cemeteries.
Karina: There’s the damage to the tree roots, but it’s also getting me thinking about the damage to the burial plot. Is that something that needs to be considered — is where these tree roots will eventually end up going through?
John: Correct. So the biggest impact is on monuments and markers that we find which are above ground, right? So if there’s a marker installed, we’re getting a big root that goes through it, that marker is now not level anymore, or the foundation has been impacted. The foundation is the concrete slab the monument sits on top of. Now the monument’s shifting, so we’ve got to go in and make those repairs, level off that foundation, level off that monument. For the markers, we may have to take some of the root out to put the marker back in. So yeah, absolutely. Above ground is where we see the challenges with the roots.
Below ground, they kind of wrap themselves around the caskets and whatnot that are in there, not so much of an impact. But a hundred percent above ground, that’s where we see the biggest challenge.
Karina: Now how about sod? Are there certain turf grass considerations that, again, you might consider certain needs closer to the roadways versus those that are a little deeper into the sanctuary spaces? Is there a particular type of turf grass that works best in your situation?
John: Just the standard sod that you would get from any nursery is what we bring in. And how we do our maintenance is we sod every grave. So any burial that took place in the winter we go back in, we tamp it, put fresh topsoil, and we sod it, every grave. It’s quite a process from start to finish, to be honest.
Karina: With climate change affecting how we manage every landscape, what sorts of changes are happening or are you planning to make in the future that will make cemeteries more resistant and resilient to hotter summers, intense storms, urban flooding and other changing weather patterns?
John: Our most significant initiative is transitioning from annual plants to drought-tolerant perennials and native species through a horticultural sustainability program that we established last year. So these plants will require less water, be generally more resilient to weather extremes and provide valuable habitat for pollinators and other wildlife. We’re also expanding our tree planting program with a focus on species diversity to create a more resilient urban forest capable of withstanding future climate conditions.
From an operational perspective, we continue to invest in efficient irrigation systems, improve drain infrastructure and proactive tree risk management. We’re actually going through an infrastructure audit now just to determine what our storm sewer systems can manage.
So we’ve gone into our 416 properties, which are our Toronto properties, and we’ve got a camera through all of the infrastructure below ground, determining where they go, determining their capacity. Do we need to expand that capacity based on recent trends?
So that is a big project we’re undertaking and once we have all those results, we plan for the future. We kind of pinpoint where the trouble areas potentially could be and we plan based on that.
Karina: I imagine that might be a little tricky with some spots that have been established for the last several decades, maybe a century, and modernizing around those spaces without disturbing too much.
John: Correct. Yeah, there’s some old infrastructure in our properties, and in any older cemetery they’re going to have to deal with that as well. We’ve run into areas where it’s plugged up, so we’ve got to bring that camera back up and then right away go in and kind of bring that stuff out so it actually works appropriately.
Go back in and run the cameras again so we know where they run. So, yeah, it’s a lot to get a good handle on it, but it’s extremely important for our operations.
Karina: And you mentioned you were replacing some annual plantings with drought-tolerant perennials. That’s a great move. I was wondering what sort of consideration you have for pollinators and diversity. What role does that play in modern cemetery management?
John: Yeah. So pollinators, in all of our gardens that we plant, we rely on pollination. And to elaborate that, we even got some beehives. In three of our cemeteries, we put some beehives, just to get more bees to that area to increase the pollination and then biodiversity in that area. They’ve been a fantastic program. Not only has it been great for all of our flowers, but the amount of community engagement is amazing. So people come out to see them. We hold workshops at the locations where the company that we partner with, they will hold the workshops. Members of the community come out, learn about it. Our staff absolutely love it. I’ve got so many pictures of our staff kind of holding all the beehives there, and they’re way more brave than I ever will be. But it’s been just a fantastic program as well.
In addition to that, we have natural burial sections. So what that means is there are dedicated sections within our cemetery that are naturalized. So we do have some wildflower pollinators that are in there. We do not spray pesticides. It’s very natural. We don’t even cut the grass. It’s all natural. And we started this year with goat grazing.
So we brought in some goats to take out all the [invasives], which again people were stopping their cars just to get out and watch. It was just fantastic for the community. But we’re getting them in again in the fall time. They came in the spring, and they did what they needed to do. They’re going to come back.
So it’s about a three-year program to try to wipe out all the invasives, going to start putting in wildflowers, pollinators in that section to really help develop and get some colour in there.
Karina: That’s really fascinating because some people might think that cemeteries are a passive, sleepy space, but it sounds like this is more of a community engagement opportunity where you know, people can come in and learn and obviously pay respects, but also connect with the environment and, and nature.
And I really love that idea of that naturalized planting zone. Is that an idea that came from people asking for that? You know, when they’re purchasing their plot, they’re like, “I don’t want this mowed. I want it to be natural.”
John: Yeah, absolutely. Within the last 10 to 15 years, it’s becoming a lot more common. It’s actually very common in BC and out west. It’s moved its way over here and is very common, with lots of questions, lots of interest in it. And you can see year over year it just becomes more and more popular, more questions about it.
So yeah, I think it’s fantastic. It’s in two of our cemeteries. We’ve got 10 that we operate, we’ve got it in two so far. But yeah, we are going to continue to grow that option because that’s the way of the future.
And to go back to your point about community, the cemeteries are part of our community. You’re going to visit your loved one, you want to have a respectful area, there’s also getting out in the community for walks, looking at nature, looking at gardens. And I really saw that during COVID when everything was shut down cemetery, the amount of people that came through our cemeteries just to, to walk through, to get out you know, we were really, a good option for, for people to, to get out of their homes and, and just go walk through the cemetery and, and really enjoy everything that we have to offer.
So, a big part of the community. It’s kinda changing its narrative. In the past it was a cemetery where you just go to visit your loved one, then you leave. But now, there’s so much more to do.
Karina: Oh, I love that. I mean, if the space is there, and it’s available to people — the research supports how these natural spaces are so important for health reasons, mental health reasons, the environmental health reasons. It’s so cool that this is a space that people can explore.
John: Absolutely.
Karina: But, unlike parks or commercial properties, cemeteries really need to balance operational efficiency with creating those peaceful spaces for visitors. How do you strike that balance with your maintenance practices? Has battery-operated equipment or other technologies helped reduce the noise and improve visitor experience?
John: Yeah, absolutely. We’ve started using electric mowers. We started that last year. It’s a five-year plan where we’re looking to switch all our gas-powered, diesel-powered to electric mowers. Started with two last year and nothing but fantastic reviews from my staff and the public. They’re very quiet and efficient. We’re not using gas, so people appreciate that.
This year we’re looking to purchase seven, so a big jump, right? We went from two to seven, and we’ll continue to implement this. Again, cemeteries are meant to be peaceful. If you’re visiting, you don’t want to hear a mower in the background. You want it to be peaceful. So that really contributes to it.
Our small tools, our trimmers, our backpack blowers, we are going electric as well. Right now we have one cemetery that has fully converted and hopefully in the fall time we’ll have two cemeteries. Again, it’s a five-year plan where our plan is to convert every cemetery to battery-powered equipment, and just add to the peacefulness of our cemeteries.
Karina: And you’re finding that they’re efficient and allowing the crews to do the job they need to do in the time they have?
John: Yep. There’s really no difference. And you know, the concern was with trimmers the battery may only last an hour. The technology’s advancing, but they’ve come up with packs of batteries. So just like you’d carry your jerry can out there, now you’re carrying a pack of batteries. And once that’s done, put in another, put in another, keep going. You go back to the shop, quick charge, and you’re back out there. So a bit of a bit of a change in how we do things, but the end results are the same. And we’re being more efficient, more environmentally friendly. So we are fully supportive and all my team members are fully supportive of this.
Karina: And your team is on site dedicated to the cemeteries? It’s not contracted out, but actually…
John: We have our own team.
Karina: Okay.
John: Yes. We have our full-time staff, part-time staff, and then we bring in seasonals during the summer months. So we have about 185 seasonals that we bring in to maintain all of our cemeteries. So it’s quite the operation.
Karina: And then the goats!
John: And the goats, of course.
Karina: So speaking of the technology, that’s really changing landscape management across many sectors. Are there any other innovations like GIS mapping, irrigation systems, electrical, asset management software… have you been using any of these to update?
John: Yeah. So our GIS mapping, all of our plots are on a mapping system. We’ve connected it with a Find a Grave app on our website. So if you are looking for a loved one, you would go to our website, you’re looking for John Smith, it brings up their location, right? So that’s all digital. Very useful tool for the public to be able to find their loved ones.
Irrigation systems — we’re getting away from running your water lines, having a tap. We’re moving towards watering stations where it’s a big container that we fill up, and then families would go to it and pour what they need and then go to water the flowers that they have on site. So that’s one big difference that we’re doing, and it kinda goes back to conserving water. It’s a change, of course, and it’s a bit of an education to families as to why we’re doing this, but it’s been very positive so far.
Another technology we use is drones. Drones are part of our surveys. When we’re assessing the topography or creating maps of catchment areas, we have a drone that we’ll use, or our contractors will use a drone to kind of map that all out and see how things would work best.
Yeah, and then really all the equipment that we’re getting, those are really the next steps that we’re proceeding with.
We are in the middle of upgrading our asset management system. Focusing more on the cemetery and funeral side of our operation and then we’ll get into the property side of our operation. Property is what I oversee. So there are so many things that we can do with it, like tracking how long it takes you to cut a section, what trees are maintained, and having it all documented.
Right now we do have that documented, but we’re upgrading our system, and I think we’ll have a lot more capability. So something that we’re really looking forward to.
Karina: Oh, that’d be great. It’s moving into the future.
John: Absolutely.
Karina: For landscape contractors who don’t work in cemeteries, what might be some of the biggest misconceptions about maintaining those landscapes? And is there anything that makes them more technically challenging than people might expect?
John: We deal with grieving families, right? So that’s a challenge in itself. Everything has to be pristine and pristine right away. You don’t get a second chance. First impressions are everything when you’re dealing with someone’s loved one. So we really focus on the precision, the planning, and respecting specialized care. Things like I mentioned earlier, monuments that are markers. You know, most landscapers don’t have to deal with that, but part of our operation is making sure they’re level, they’re clean. Any grass clippings are blown off of them.
You know fresh graves, right? We’ve got to make sure that there’s new sod. You’re going to cut around it. It’s not like a whole area of sod. It’s one grave over here, one grave over there. So you really got to… You can’t just fly up and down the rows. You have to make sure you go around these. You don’t want to drive over fresh sod.
So those are the differences I would say with cemetery operations, and we do a lot of foundations. So that is like I mentioned earlier, digging about four to five feet in depth, pouring concrete, leveling that concrete so the monument sits on top of that to stabilize it. So that’s part of our operation as well. Overall, we do about 10,000 burials a year. So think about those 10,000 graves that we’ve got to repair, additional markers, additional monuments.
Snow plowing. We have funeral centres, so we want to make sure those are properly maintained and plowed in the winter months. Very similar like a contractor would do for their properties, but we need to make sure that we’re on top of that. Yeah, those I think would be the differences or things that people may not expect that we do.
Karina: With snow clearing, are you looking for alternatives to reduce reliance on salt?
John: We are, we are — we’re looking at brine. It’s something that we just started to investigate, and we’re going to trial at one of our cemeteries this upcoming winter. We’re looking to reduce the amount of salt we put down, the amount of salt that washes into the waterways. Yeah. We’re looking to get the equipment set up and take some training, better understand it.
But I 100 per cent think that’s the way to go. That’s the future way to go. So far I like what I hear and what I see, and I’m really looking forward to getting that trial going.
Karina: Mm-hmm. I hope you let us know how it does go because there — that’s something a lot of people are looking at. We’re very motivated as an industry to reduce our reliance on salt and the impact that it’s having on the environment. So we look forward to hearing what sorts of successes you have.
John: Yeah. Happy to share.
Karina: Since you’re doing about 10,000 burials a year and you have multiple cemetery locations throughout the GTA, how do you manage sod? I mean, because sod is best when planted as close to harvest as possible, are you making daily orders?
John: Yeah, spring, early summer and fall, we order skids upon skids of sod. And like I mentioned earlier, we fortunately have a lot of seasonals who work with us and help our operations and they’re maintaining, they’re watering on a daily basis, sometimes twice a day if needed. But they are essential to our operation to keep that sod alive and our flower gardens and everything. We rely very heavily on our talented seasonal staff.
Karina: And are there special times of the day where certain tasks are carried out? Even though you switched to battery, battery is not entirely noise-free. Leaf blowers still generate noise. Are there times of day where you just don’t run those types of machines because there may be services happening? Or do you push them to different parts of the properties?
John: Exactly, we switch crews to different parts of the properties. With the sites with the gas powered mowers, we really get away so there’s no noise. The ones with electric, not as far because it’s not too noisy. But yeah, if there’s any service going on anywhere, absolutely we leave the area.
Even if there’s somebody visiting a grave, we leave the area and we’ll come back. We would just want them to have the best experience possible when they’re visiting their loved one.
Karina: It’s very considerate.
John: Yeah.
Karina: When you look into the future, say 25, 50 years in the future, what do you think cemetery landscapes will look like? And are there any trends that landscape professionals should be paying attention to today?
John: I think cemeteries will become more sustainable, more environmentally responsible, and focus on creating meaningful spaces for remembrance. I think landscape professionals should pay close attention to climate change, water conservation, native and drought-tolerant plantings, biodiversity, and environmentally friendly maintenance practices. Our goal is, whether we buy new vehicles for our office staff or equipment, we look to reduce our carbon footprint. If we can buy a hybrid vehicle, we will go with a hybrid. If we can get electric, we’ll do that. We’ll do whatever it takes to lower the carbon footprint. Same as what we’re doing with the battery-operated equipment. But I think cemeteries — and I see it now, and I’ve been in cemeteries literally my entire life — it went from diesel-powered, all gas to now, I never thought I’d see the day, but it’s battery-powered equipment, right? So I can only imagine what it’s going to look like in 15 to 20 years. And people are starting to pick up on these trends, right? Environmentally friendly and climate change. They’re starting to understand it more and I think more people are jumping on board.
I belong to a cemetery association, so I’ve got a lot of colleagues and friends that I talk to, and they’re all doing the same, right? Looking at battery-powered mowers and even the ones that are not, um… There’s no person operating it. It’s like the vacuum, the Roomba. I forget what they…
Karina: The autonomous mowers?
John: … yeah! So they just set it and go. There’s absolutely no staff, and I just, I was amazed by that, that that’s what they’re trying out, right? So every operator is trying out different things, but I can see the direction that this industry is moving towards.
Karina: It sounds like cemeteries could be a real testing ground and a flagship of best practices for landscape maintenance in general for the future.
John: Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Karina: What’s one lesson you’ve learned from managing cemetery landscapes that you think every landscape pro should apply to their own projects?
John: One of the biggest lessons that I’ve learned is to think in decades, not seasons. Cemetery landscapes are expected to endure for generations based on their design decisions, tree selection, drainage, pathways, plant material.
One of our biggest challenges is in the winter months, well, not necessarily winter, more in the fall, when we’re going to do a burial, you’re driving over sod that is just saturated, right? So when you’re planning this, you really want to ensure that you get the best water drainage that comes off, so it’s not as wet. There won’t be a big impact because we’ve got to go back and repair that, right?
So that’s one of the challenges. It goes back to the draining and the planning. And make sure that all our sections are kind of a curve, so it all flows away. A landscape that looks great today, but would be costly in 20 years is not truly successful. So we look at efficiencies in everything that we do. Again, it goes back to the plant species, proper planning, thinking about future growth design, maintenance, keeping all those things in mind.
Those are the things that I’ve learned. And again, you’re dealing with grieving people, and to me, the first impression is everything. I always think about if I’m in their shoes, if I’m going to the cemetery where my loved one’s buried, I want it looking amazing because my loved one’s there.
It’s a very high expectation. We have high standards that we stick to for that reason.
Karina: Well, definitely the visitors would have complex emotions. And when you can deal with those while wrapped in what feels like a safe and regenerative and rejuvenating type of environment, that can go a long way towards healing.
John: Absolutely. Yep. I agree.
Karina: When visitors come in, if they only notice one thing about a beautifully maintained cemetery, what do you hope that would be?
John: Ooh, just one thing. Um, I would say just a cared-for cemetery. I want them to see the care that all of our employees — all of our employees are fantastic, and they all have such a care for what they do. I want our grounds to prove to them that we do care. We will do whatever it takes to make this cemetery pristine, and it will make you happy upon your visit.
It’s not a happy place, let’s be honest, for most people, but we want to make it a happy place for them. We want them to drive in and say, “This place is cared for. I’m happy my loved one is here.”
Karina: That’s powerful. And I think as a goal, that’s a pretty great one to have.
So John, thank you so much for sharing the behind-the-scenes look at cemeteries, and all the care and consideration that goes into taking these multi-generational spaces from the past into the future.
So thanks for coming onto the podcast today.
John: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Music
Karina: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Landscape Ontario Podcast. A big thank you to John Perrotto for sharing his perspective on the unique challenges and opportunities of managing cemetery landscapes. It’s a role that requires equal parts horticultural expertise, environmental responsibility, and respect for the grieving families who visit these spaces every day.
If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to the Landscape Ontario Podcast so you don’t miss future episodes. You can find the show wherever you listen to podcasts, and you’ll find links, resources, and a full transcription of our conversation at LandscapeOntario.com/Podcast.
Thanks again for listening, and until next time, keep growing.
